I think that in addition to women who know for certain that they aren't cut out for motherhood is a grey area where we might be good or good-enough mothers but it isn't worth the risk of finding out we aren't. Those who take the risk and are pleasantly surprised have a happy story to share but the opposite side of that coin is a narrative we are less likely to hear (figuring this out helped me decide not to have kids after assuming I would for many years).
I recently argued with someone of Peterson's general stance in a different forum and it makes one want to tear one's hair out.
I do believe that the reason western civs have fewer children is because we emphasize personal development more. Who is going to have an easier time accepting childbearing: someone who's been a dedicated gymnast for 15 years, or someone who has been dragging a baby around on her hip since she was 6? Truly, feminism has ruined us. /s
At the same time, everywhere in the world, if you give women choice, they choose to have fewer children. This tells you a universal truth. Women who want fewer/no children are NOT an aberration, except in their ability to actualize this preference.
In spite of tokophobia, I did have children, and it took me 7 years to crawl out of that hole and accept my new life. Tbh, I think I'm still crawling out of it, but I've reached a level of resignation where I can say the line that my kids are the most meaningful thing in my life (because there's little room for anything else!). I don't believe in regrets, but I can still see that other path diverged in the yellow wood and I know where it goes and it's not a worse one.
Also 100% agree with you about the deterioration of Jordan Peterson. Pity; he seemed like an overall positive force at first, but something cracked along the way.
I've heard many parents share a similar story to yours, sometimes you can tell it's implied just by the tone even if not explicitly stated. I admire both the ability to avoid regret because that's the healthier path (whatever we choose) and also the honesty of recognizing that the other path isn't a worse one. This is the kind of open discussion that helps people make the best choice for themselves that they can.
I agree! I had children in my early to mid twenties and looking back I don’t feel I was ready! Maturity, mentally and emotionally I was not ready to raise 2 children! I love my (now adult) kids with all my heart and tried my best to give them everything I could but my relationship with their father broke down, I broke down and this wasn’t fair on my two amazing little ones at the time! I wouldn’t be without them for a second but feel I should have maybe hung in a few more years at least!
So if you want children then fine but do it in your time, not by judgement of others and if you don’t then that’s fine too! Children ARE FOR LIFE!
Amen to that. Thank you for writing this. As a childfree man, I agree 💯. The outmoded and specious notion that "everybody must procreate" indeed needs to be exposed as the BIG LIE that it is. Especially in a world of overpopulation and severe ecological overshoot. (Even if our world was not like that, it is still BS that everybody must procreate). Jordan PeterPan can go stuff it!
I just found your 'stack. Thank you for writing this. I've long thought that women who don't want children (that would include myself) should do themselves and everyone else a favor by not having them. Most importantly: no child should be raised by a mother who would have preferred never having had him/her. To put a positive spin on things: it's possible that as parenting becomes increasingly easy to opt out of, those who become parents will parent better (they actively chose to be parents, after all), and there won't be as many neglected and/or abused children.
I wouldn't be too harsh on Jordan Peterson, though. Yeah, the man cracked and lost the plot. (And he also doesn't seem to be able to speak without yelling anymore, which is the main reason I've stopped listening to him.) But lots of people would have cracked and lost the plot if they had gone through a quarter of what he's gone through. So, on a purely personal level, I sympathize with the man.
> "Let’s not. Let’s let those who know themselves regulate themselves."
Indeed. And let those who DO know themselves regulate those who don't ... 😉🙂
Reminds me of a classic and quite brilliant quote from Eleanor Roosevelt which seems to have been what you had in mind there:
ER: "... our children must learn...to face full responsibility for their actions, to make their own choices and cope with the results...the whole democratic system...depends upon it. For our system is founded on self-government, which is untenable if the individuals who make up the system are unable to govern themselves."
Awesome responsibility to bring kids into the world, and for what? To be crucified on the cross of life?
But assuming there's some overarching and transcendent "purpose" and "reason" for that process, one might reasonably argue that far too many parents, and prospective ones, have a wanton if not criminal disregard for the costs and consequences of their actions.
I would just say that having kids has been incredibly rewarding and positive in ways I didn’t expect and had no idea about before I had them. It’s been a great decision despite many bumps in the road. But I’m a man and I do think the ages 0-2 or 3 are significantly tougher on women than men.
These are very personal issues and I can’t and don’t contest anything you wrote here, I just think it’s extremely difficult to predict how having kids will turn out before you actually have them. It’s in some ways “easier” than you would think - kids have a lot of capacity to “raise themselves” as long as they aren’t actively maltreated.
Thank you for writing this.
I think that in addition to women who know for certain that they aren't cut out for motherhood is a grey area where we might be good or good-enough mothers but it isn't worth the risk of finding out we aren't. Those who take the risk and are pleasantly surprised have a happy story to share but the opposite side of that coin is a narrative we are less likely to hear (figuring this out helped me decide not to have kids after assuming I would for many years).
I recently argued with someone of Peterson's general stance in a different forum and it makes one want to tear one's hair out.
Hear hear!
I do believe that the reason western civs have fewer children is because we emphasize personal development more. Who is going to have an easier time accepting childbearing: someone who's been a dedicated gymnast for 15 years, or someone who has been dragging a baby around on her hip since she was 6? Truly, feminism has ruined us. /s
At the same time, everywhere in the world, if you give women choice, they choose to have fewer children. This tells you a universal truth. Women who want fewer/no children are NOT an aberration, except in their ability to actualize this preference.
In spite of tokophobia, I did have children, and it took me 7 years to crawl out of that hole and accept my new life. Tbh, I think I'm still crawling out of it, but I've reached a level of resignation where I can say the line that my kids are the most meaningful thing in my life (because there's little room for anything else!). I don't believe in regrets, but I can still see that other path diverged in the yellow wood and I know where it goes and it's not a worse one.
Also 100% agree with you about the deterioration of Jordan Peterson. Pity; he seemed like an overall positive force at first, but something cracked along the way.
"Women who want fewer/no children are NOT an aberration, except in their ability to actualize this preference."
Love this! Thank you!
This is something I feel in my gut, and I think it goes back much further than feminism actually.
Amen
I've heard many parents share a similar story to yours, sometimes you can tell it's implied just by the tone even if not explicitly stated. I admire both the ability to avoid regret because that's the healthier path (whatever we choose) and also the honesty of recognizing that the other path isn't a worse one. This is the kind of open discussion that helps people make the best choice for themselves that they can.
He is SO depressing. He only eats beef and salt - I’d be depressed, too.
I mean those are my favorite foods :D
But yes, one does need a nice salad now and then.
You gotta get a little roughage; some vitamin C.
"The Lion Diet", he calls it. LOL
I agree! I had children in my early to mid twenties and looking back I don’t feel I was ready! Maturity, mentally and emotionally I was not ready to raise 2 children! I love my (now adult) kids with all my heart and tried my best to give them everything I could but my relationship with their father broke down, I broke down and this wasn’t fair on my two amazing little ones at the time! I wouldn’t be without them for a second but feel I should have maybe hung in a few more years at least!
So if you want children then fine but do it in your time, not by judgement of others and if you don’t then that’s fine too! Children ARE FOR LIFE!
Brilliant. Nailed it 👏👏👏
DAAAAAMN! SO frickin’ spot on!!!!
Great post. I really appreciate how you pointed out that plenty of immature people do have children and, in fact, do not mature through parenthood.
Nailed it.
It's the economy, silly. Nobody really cares about women's self fulfillment.
As usual Shannon, brilliant thoughts/writing!
Thank you!
I wish we heard more from the adult children of women who didn’t really want to be mothers in the first place, or ever.
Amen to that. Thank you for writing this. As a childfree man, I agree 💯. The outmoded and specious notion that "everybody must procreate" indeed needs to be exposed as the BIG LIE that it is. Especially in a world of overpopulation and severe ecological overshoot. (Even if our world was not like that, it is still BS that everybody must procreate). Jordan PeterPan can go stuff it!
I just found your 'stack. Thank you for writing this. I've long thought that women who don't want children (that would include myself) should do themselves and everyone else a favor by not having them. Most importantly: no child should be raised by a mother who would have preferred never having had him/her. To put a positive spin on things: it's possible that as parenting becomes increasingly easy to opt out of, those who become parents will parent better (they actively chose to be parents, after all), and there won't be as many neglected and/or abused children.
I wouldn't be too harsh on Jordan Peterson, though. Yeah, the man cracked and lost the plot. (And he also doesn't seem to be able to speak without yelling anymore, which is the main reason I've stopped listening to him.) But lots of people would have cracked and lost the plot if they had gone through a quarter of what he's gone through. So, on a purely personal level, I sympathize with the man.
Thanks! Agreed--We can't expect sainthood from Peterson, and he still has a lot of good things to say.
Excellent.
100% spot on.
> "Let’s not. Let’s let those who know themselves regulate themselves."
Indeed. And let those who DO know themselves regulate those who don't ... 😉🙂
Reminds me of a classic and quite brilliant quote from Eleanor Roosevelt which seems to have been what you had in mind there:
ER: "... our children must learn...to face full responsibility for their actions, to make their own choices and cope with the results...the whole democratic system...depends upon it. For our system is founded on self-government, which is untenable if the individuals who make up the system are unable to govern themselves."
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/824275-our-children-must-learn-to-face-full-responsibility-for-their-actions
Awesome responsibility to bring kids into the world, and for what? To be crucified on the cross of life?
But assuming there's some overarching and transcendent "purpose" and "reason" for that process, one might reasonably argue that far too many parents, and prospective ones, have a wanton if not criminal disregard for the costs and consequences of their actions.
I would just say that having kids has been incredibly rewarding and positive in ways I didn’t expect and had no idea about before I had them. It’s been a great decision despite many bumps in the road. But I’m a man and I do think the ages 0-2 or 3 are significantly tougher on women than men.
These are very personal issues and I can’t and don’t contest anything you wrote here, I just think it’s extremely difficult to predict how having kids will turn out before you actually have them. It’s in some ways “easier” than you would think - kids have a lot of capacity to “raise themselves” as long as they aren’t actively maltreated.